User talk:MusikAnimal

About this board

Welcome to my talk page! Ask me anything :)

DavidB (talkcontribs)

Hey dude- quick heads up if you get to it before I do. The band’s appearance on Tonight Show last night was not taped the day it aired. Probably in the afternoon the day before.

I noticed during the broadcast the show didn’t use the basic camera movements they use when the band is in studio during the normal taping - panning from Fallon’s intro at the desk to the band, for example. I investigated and Jack’s Instagram has a post with a welcome note from Fallon dated 9/22 (https://www.instagram.com/p/Ci23sMDumG-/?igshid=MDJmNzVkMjY=) (hope that’s linked right). Just wanted to give you a heads up so nobody has to change the date on the page later.  :)

Also probably wouldn’t bother embedding the performance since Tonight Show only leaves them up for a limited time and we’ll have a dead link in a few weeks or months.

Reply to "Fallon"
DavidB (talkcontribs)

Hey dude: two bugs I noticed today, hopefully both easy fixes. On show pages with a VIP set (like this one), it looks like the VIP tag overrides the tease tag. (Gossamer is only a tease at that show.) Also, on song pages with a “Charts” section, such as Today and Disarm, there’s a bug preventing song stats from displaying at the bottom of the page. I took a quick peek but couldn’t figure it out.

MusikAnimal (talkcontribs)

Miraheze (our wiki provider) just upgraded MediaWiki, and I think some change to the Cargo extension broke our queries! Thanks for alerting me to this. I will get this fixed ASAP.

MusikAnimal (talkcontribs)

Okay fixed! The first issue with teases not showing up for VIP shows was apparently a long-standing bug with display (the songs were properly recorded in the database as both VIP and tease, at least). Fixed with Special:Diff/74202.

The second issue was rather interesting. The error was showing that the date field was missing on a row in the database, causing a runtime error. So I ran a query to find live song entries that were missing a date. They all appeared on Billy Corgan 2011-XX-XX. I just saved that page again without making any changes (what's called a null edit), which re-triggers the database writes, and that fixed the corrupt data. Then I re-purged the effect pages (they would update eventually anyway) and all is well now :) So probably not a bug with the MediaWiki upgrade as I suspected, rather the last time someone tried to save Billy Corgan 2011-XX-XX it broke halfway through or something. Weird!

If you see any other bugs that sound the same as the above two, try purging the page ("Purge" link under the 'More' menu). If it's still broken, that means it's other bug so do please let me know!

Thanks again for the heads up.

DavidB (talkcontribs)

Awesome, thanks!

One other thing non-bug related that’s been on my mind recently. Hopefully I’m explaining my thought process clearly enough, since my kids have interrupted the writing of this message about six times, lol. I’ve been filling in song times recently for songs that had them already but weren’t consistently including them (such as I Am One, Rock On, etc.), as well as adding for a few songs with variations of more than a few minutes (Blue Skies Bring Tears, for example, or BWBW in 1998). A few more coming eventually. However, some of these songs have no more than a few seconds of length variation in specific blocks of time: Heavy Metal Machine in 2000, Siva in 2018 and Once in a Lifetime in 2022 are a few good examples of this.

In your view, is it worth including the song times during specific eras when they stay fairly static or do you think it’s cluttering things up too badly? Likewise, does it make sense to have times for some songs and not all?

Oh, and just FYI, I’ve been working on the banter for 1988-1992, though my kids schedules are busier than usual this summer, so I’ve had less time to do so. Almost finished with 1991.

You going to the MSG show in October?

MusikAnimal (talkcontribs)

I'm not too concerned about the clutter, but if the lengths of the songs have little variance, you could save yourself the hassle and skip those (or at least include the first one for that tour, or something). What makes the song lengths interesting is to see which one was the longest vs. the usual and/or the shortest. As long as those interesting renditions still show up when viewing the Tour stats section on the song page, that should suffice I would think. Either way the decisions is yours! I'm just grateful for you doing all of this data entry :)

I am indeed going to the MSG show in October! You too as well, I hope? My friend Alvaro from Guatemala City is flying up for it. He's going with his wife (as am I), and both our wives aren't really into SP all that much, so I'm hoping at some point the wives will settle with the cheaper tickets I got so I can join Alvaro in the 3rd row :) We shall see! Anyway if you are going, I demand we meet up!

DavidB (talkcontribs)

Good idea re first for a tour. Still compiling some data so I guess I’ll see what I come up with.

I’m going to the Philly show - hitting MSG on a weeknight would be tough re time required to get there and back (plus dealing with the NJ Transit schedule!). I love being able to leave a show and be home 20 minutes later if I time things right, haha.

Reply to "Bugs"
DavidB (talkcontribs)

"There are some interesting results, such as "Silverfuck" which points to 1994-03-24 as the shortest, but that's because they split up the song in halves. Do you think it's still fair to call this the shortest performance? Right now if you add |longest=1 to the {{availability}} template on song pages, it will show both the longest and the shortest. I can make them separate parameters, or add a |hideshortest= parameter."

Following up on this since I just transcribed 1994-03-24. I'd consider this Silverfuck to be one whole song/medley grouped under one heading number followed by a sub-list, rather than a split. March Hare/Suffer in 2008 is a better example than those I cited before. Whoever did timestamping at SPLRA counted pauses for banter as part of a song and as I mentioned, I've continued along those lines (see longest Heavy Metal Machine). That would make this version 24:35, including Jackboot.

I've been re-timing the '93-94 Silverfucks as I go since most shows list an unknown instrumental before Silverfuck and it's pretty clearly an improv'd Silverfuck intro. Now that I've gotten to the shows where Jackboot is played in full, I'm including that in the time as well, again similar to how 2007 Heavy Metal Machines are listed. This has raised a question for me though that you might be able to help me with: where is the Jackboot tease in the 1993 and early 94 Silverfucks? The song ends with the same outro show after show but unless I'm missing something, there's not actually any elements of Jackboot within it. Your thoughts?

FWIW, also been working on re-timing MCIS era Siva, since post-Jimmy versions usually have an improv intro that isn't counted in the listed time. Also doubled back to 2008 to time those Sivas (and am including KYP intro in time). (Skipping 2011 + 2018-2019 Sivas since there's generally no more than 15 seconds difference between versions.)

MusikAnimal (talkcontribs)

Well I certainly agree for 1994-03-24 that it should be just one Silverfuck and not two halves. As for Jackboot, having not listened carefully to all those shows, I'm not sure whether or not there actually are Jackboot elements in those Silverfucks. I say this all the time, but I trust your judgement :) It's possible whoever did the original entries got in the habit of including Jackboot without much verification.

DavidB (talkcontribs)

Cool. I have a friend who knows more about SD era than I do since he was into the band (and on the internet) before me…I’ll see if he can explain to me.

DavidB (talkcontribs)

I think I forgot to follow up on this? My friend had no clue and I still don't see how the common ending jam is a Jackboot tease, though there are clearly times where they play it as an outro. That said, I'm finished with the '93-'94 banter edits so you should see those start going up soon, starting with removal of the August 1993 Jackboot teases at Metro as soon as tonight.

DavidB (talkcontribs)

Hey - just following up one more time. Updated 1994-03-24 page is now live.  :)

MusikAnimal (talkcontribs)

Thanks! It looks great! I am forever grateful for your work here :)

I admit I have been slowing down lately, but I'm starting to get back into the groove. My main focus is every time I do a social media post, I make a copy of the content over at SPCodex:Social media. The idea is that one day, I may be able to automate the whole thing, while allowing some trusted users such as yourself make any necessary updates, etc., so we do keep posting outdated info. More on that when the project is complete some 8+ months from now, hehe.

Something else that would be more interest to you is the effort to making associations between live songs and releases. So you have pages like Mashed Potatoes (or any commercial release with live material), and there's a "Source" column in the track listing. This links the song to what show it was played at. This way, eventually we'll have it so that every live show page automatically shows what releases contain the songs, and which songs in particular.

Also, once Miraheze (our provider) gives the green light, we can query the archive.org API and automatically show [Play] buttons next to songs, streaming from the Live Music Archive! That's a definite maybe, but I'm hoping it'll work out. Still multiple moons away from being reality.

Anyways, hope you are well and again thanks for all you do here :)

Reply to "1994-03-24 Silverfuck"
DavidB (talkcontribs)

Hey man--quick opinion question for you. Realized I never transcribed the banter for a few 2000 shows so I'm doubling back to them now. I did 2000-02-10 a couple days ago and think it should potentially be split into two different shows, even though it was not advertised as such. From listening to the tape, it's clear that too many people showed up for the show and so many were left outside that the venue was emptied between sets and those stuck outside were allowed in for set 2. (Billy mentions during set 1 that they will do this and it's also reflected in the tape at archive.org, where the second set is recorded from outside the venue.) A couple of things distinguishing both sets as "separate" shows are that that both had encores and Glass and the Ghost Children was played in both. I guess there's precedent for leaving sets with separate audiences on one page (like the Zuzu's opening) but feel like this is a little different. Given that the setlist is incomplete - missing the encore breaks, acoustic tags are missing or wrong on several songs, needs a note re Billy playing keyboard on a few songs - seems that nobody has taken as close of a look at this show in the last 20+ years. Thoughts?

MusikAnimal (talkcontribs)

Were they two ticketed events, or did they just oversell? It seems odd that they would oversell, but either way it makes for an interesting scenario that seems worthy of documenting, regardless of whether we break it out into to two separate shows. For the reasons you state, I suppose it makes sense as separate pages. I think you probably already know how this works, but I'd suggest The Smashing Pumpkins 2000-02-10 (early set) and The Smashing Pumpkins 2000-02-10 (late set). Then change The Smashing Pumpkins 2000-02-10 to be a disambiguation page, stating why there are two pages for this date (since unlike other examples it was advertised as one show). See The Smashing Pumpkins 1998-08-21 for an example of the syntax used for the so-called "disambiguation" pages. We "transclude" the Special:PrefixIndex results, ala {{Special:PrefixIndex/The Smashing Pumpkins 2000-02-10 (}} then followed by the {{disambiguation}} template below it.

Thanks for your dedication to making our live show records so accurate!

DavidB (talkcontribs)

Ha! I guess I was googling the wrong phrase the other day because I just turned up enough now - it was a free show put on by the local radio station, announced the day of. Capacity capped at 100 but so many people showed up that they split it up into two. Makes sense - as I mentioned, the second half of the recording is from outside the venue, but it's actually pretty good considering (if you ignore the crowd chatter). No problem at all - as I think I mentioned once before, playing detective is fun when I uncover stuff like this!

Anyway, I'll go ahead and split up the sets and add some of the info I pulled when I get to uploading those shows missing banter. As you may have seen, I started inputting the song lengths for some of the longer songs from the past 15 years or so, since that info generally ends with the MCIS tour. Once I have the info online, I'll hit the individual song pages and add the code for longest performance. Would possibly be interesting if you could add one for shortest performance as well, though in most cases, that would likely end up being BC solo performances from 2017/19.

I don't think I ever asked - how was Sea Hear Now?

MusikAnimal (talkcontribs)

Sorry for the late reply. This sounds great!

I've changed it to show the shortest performance too, ignoring abandoned songs and teases. There are some interesting results, such as "Silverfuck" which points to 1994-03-24 as the shortest, but that's because they split up the song in halves. Do you think it's still fair to call this the shortest performance? Right now if you add |longest=1 to the {{availability}} template on song pages, it will show both the longest and the shortest. I can make them separate parameters, or add a |hideshortest= parameter.

Sea.Hear.Now. was stellar! Pearl Jam was the first night and man oh man were they incredible! Finally got that off my bucket list, but it still kind of hurt knowing it was just a festival show hence about half as long as a real show would have been. I can't lie, it seemed like 75+% of the festival crowd was there for Pearl Jam. It was nearly full capacity when they went on, all on the same stage (there were 4 stages total). Pumpkins of course killed it on night two but it was about 10K less people, I estimate (it was also Sunday night, to be fair). Before the show I went up to the rail to meet Pamela Fisher (who I think you may have spoken to on setlist.fm) along with some other diehard fans, they were all happy to put a face to the SPCodex name, and I of course mentioned you to them as well :) I'm not much of a on-the-rail kind of guy so I ended up about 50 feet back for the actual show. It was amazing! Really cool to hear some of the new songs live. As suspected they put a hard rock, not-so-synthy kind of touch to all of them. "Wyttch" in particular was a pleasant surprise as Billy had said in the past that one would be tough to do live because of the vocal range. He didn't miss a note :)

DavidB (talkcontribs)

No problem for the late reply - obviously it's taken me a few days to get back to you as well, haha.

Re 1994-03-24, from a quick look, I think I'd group the whole thing together under one line and remove the "second half" of Silverfuck line (kind of similar to how we list 2008 Cash Car Star or 2007-8 Heavy Metal Machine), since including that also skews the number of times the song's been played. Would include the entire thing from first to last note in the time too - the longest HMM (only version over 20 minutes, I believe) includes several minutes of banter in the middle. Still working on the SD tour banter so I'll get to this show eventually and can handle it then.

Glad you enjoyed the show. I dig that live version of Wyttch a lot more than the album cut. And I hear you re Pearl Jam - I never got into them much past Ten, but my wife is a huge fan, so I was able to scratch them off my bucket list in 2009 and it ended up being what's still their longest show ever. A lot of stuff I didn't know but enough radio stuff throughout to keep it interesting.

DavidB (talkcontribs)

Hey man--finally got around to splitting up 2000-02-10. I think I did everything correctly, though the disambiguation page is still showing up in the tour history and also when using the previous/next show arrow icons from the preceding and following shows. Will that fix itself once I clear my cookies or did I miss a step somewhere? Thanks!

MusikAnimal (talkcontribs)

Looks good! The tour history pages and prev/next show links should eventually fix themselves, but to force an immediate fix you simply purge the cache. As an admin you have a direct link to it; look for "Purge cache" under the "More" menu. I already purged those few pages so it should all be correct now.

Another thing to note here that may not have been obvious: the prev/next show links run a database query in order to figure out which show to link to. Here we created two new live show pages. So if you created the page on the early set first, the "next" link won't know to link to the late set show because you hadn't created it yet. So sometimes as weird as it seems you have to purge the cache on the same page that you just created, depending on the order that other dependent pages were created. Hopefully that makes sense :) Basically, when in doubt, purge the cache.

DavidB (talkcontribs)

Cool, thanks. Makes sense. And just FYI, may not be around much in near future as I work on the 93-94 banter. Less familiar with this tour and looking for patterns, etc. that may be relevant by listening to repeated shows (i.e. frequent listing for “unknown instrumental” from this tour is just a Silverfuck intro), so what’s not live already may go up all at once.

Reply to "2000-02-10"
DavidB (talkcontribs)

Hey dude-- Just FYI, now that I reached 2007 in editing etc., I added a page for the "Suspiria" intro music. I didn't label it as a cover on that page, although it is labeled that way on the only show page to which I've added it so far. Just wanted to double check and make sure you think that makes sense before I proceed too much further into the tour. Thanks.

MusikAnimal (talkcontribs)

That sounds great, thanks for creating these pages! I went back and did some minor cleanup, mainly changing the type parameter to instrumental and removing the redundant Lyrics section. I've also made some changes to {{infobox song}} since it mostly assumes the artist you're writing about is within scope, so it incorrectly adds the page to i.e. Category:Goblin songs (as opposed to those listed at Category:Songs by artist). The parameter is called nonstandard_artist and for this you'd set it to true or 1 or any truthy-like value.

By the way, there are some forms that might make it easier for creating new pages, in this case you'd use Form:New song. I admit they aren't really finished yet, for instance I need to add a checkbox for the new nonstandard_artist parameter. Nonetheless, you may find the forms will still save you a little time even if you have to re-edit and fix things after saving, so I thought I'd let you know about them. Whenever they're in better shape I'll add a "Create a page" link in the sidebar or something.

DavidB (talkcontribs)

Cool, thanks, that's definitely helpful info. And thanks for going back and doing the link from Suspiria > HSC, it was on my mental to do list and got buried when I went down a YouTube rabbit hole trying to find the version of HSC that SP used, I guess, haha.


Maybe after I finish 2007-2008, I'll do the page for Sarabande and add that to all of the 2019 shows before I double back to 2009-2010 for acoustic info, intros, etc. The three mentioned above should be it for intros - with the exception of the instrumental synth version of Stitch in Time for 2010, I believe all others are either unidentifiable. I guess I still have to add the Silent Machines one from late 2000 too.

Reply to "Suspiria"
DavidB (talkcontribs)

Hey dude, maybe you're aware of this already but whenever a page is loaded at the moment, the "read / edit / edit source / view history" banner at the top disappears. You can still edit individual sections on a page but that's a little weird too. Tried a few different browsers and restarted my computer to no avail, so I think it's not just me. Hopefully you already know but wanted to give you a heads up in case you don't. DB

MusikAnimal (talkcontribs)

Our hosting provider upgraded MediaWiki to version 1.36 and which came with some breaking changes, apparently. For now I've removed the customization we had on the top navigation bar. I may try to figure out how to fix it and bring back the old look, but really it's probably best to stay without customization because things will surely break again and we'll have to continually update our CSS to work with the newest MediaWiki (which gets upgraded about twice a year).

DavidB (talkcontribs)

Sure, no prob. Thanks for the quick fix. One thing I did notice about the change is that it screwed up the setlist formatting for number continuation within encores, second sets, etc. - gives you an empty #1 line before continuing with the proper number for whatever the next song is. Here's an example but there are many many more. I'm going to keep adding the numbering for now but let me know if it'll create more work for either of us later and I'll knock it off.

One small favor to ask of you while I have your ear: would you please create a tag for intro tapes? As I think I mentioned once, I would prefer "tape" to "PA" - technically, everything is coming out of the PA - but am fine with whatever you want. Thanks, as always! DB

MusikAnimal (talkcontribs)

I noticed that too. I've added a workaround in our site CSS, but unfortunately this only fixes for desktop. Due to a separate bug we don't have control over mobile CSS. Anyway, I think Miraheze (our hosting service) can still patch this on their end, so I filed a new bug at phab:T7468.

And yes, I can add a tape=1 tag to the {{live song}} template. So it should read "(over tape)"? I wonder if people will know what that means (tape to me implies audio or video cassettes). What about "(prerecorded)"?

Another small note for you, and this totally not a big deal: The manual of style (which is adapted from Wikipedia's manual of style) states that in encyclopedic writing, you should use full names on the first mention of a person, and subsequent mentions only use the surname. First names aren't ever used unless they have to be (to distinguish between Jimmy and Dennis Flemion, for instance), or if it's a quote such as live show banter. Again this is a very trivial matter and nothing important, I just noticed you've been writing "Billy", etc., so I thought I'd let you know about it. No need to go back and change all the Billy's to Corgan's, unless you really want to.

DavidB (talkcontribs)

You raise a good point. Sometimes when I'm adding wiki links in the banter, I think "Would my kids know what the hell he's talking about in 20 years without the link?" Audio/video tapes probably fall under that line of thought, haha. (prerecorded) sounds good to me! May have questions about how to address when the recorded intro isn't a song (or at least a recognizable one), but can address that when I get there. Thank you.

Point taken re names. "Corgan" seems so overly formal to me, especially on a solo show page for example, but I can live with it for consistency's sake.

MusikAnimal (talkcontribs)

Okay, the prerecorded=1 parameter has been added, see The Smashing Pumpkins 1996-10-01 for example. As a shortcut, you can use tape=1 too. Usually for an intro that isn't a song, I wouldn't use the {{live song}} template at all, just like we do for drum solos, etc. The template should only be used if it is a known song, I think.

I'm also going to change the format of the "Tour stats" section of songs to indicate how many times it was prerecorded, and not count those towards the total number of plays. That sounds fair, right? For instance Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness (song)#Tour stats indicates 210 plays, but I think that is very far from the actual number of times the song was performed live.

MusikAnimal (talkcontribs)

I'll add that I'm going through the Infinite Sadness tour now, so I can handle adding the prerecorded=1 and other cleanup on those pages, if you want to focus on others.

At some point soon I will still write a bot task to fix the numbering of the setlists (i.e. <li value=10>). I'm actually going to stop doing that manually; that very much sounds like a job for a bot. However despite what I said adding acoustic=1 I think will be hard to automate, so I'll leave that to us humans. I can automate changing notes=over PA to prerecorded=1, since it's almost always the same wording (at least for the Infinite Sadness tour).

DavidB (talkcontribs)

Sounds good re changing tour stats re pre-recorded. MCIS is the only song for which that's an issue, but (for me) would also be interesting to see on the Zeitgeist tour how many times either intro was used. (I'll handle the Zeitgeist tours since they are so intro heavy and will create pages for the two songs used there.) Fine letting a bot handle the numbering and doing acoustic ourselves.

As far as bots go: is there a way to remove soundcheck songs from the first/last/only performance stuff? I don't remember what song I came across recently where the first public performance didn't have the note because it was soundchecked a few days previous.

Thanks re Infinite Sadness tour. I still have to go back through that banter and add wiki links - would have started there instead of Adore but didn't want to have to do a second pass once we had the intro issue figured out - so just a heads up that that's coming at some point, albeit bumped down the to do list now. One thing I was going to do while I did that is something you might be able to handle - almost all of the post-Jimmy shows on the tour don't list Jimmy Flemion in the personnel sidebar. I believe he is at all but maybe 2-4 in early 1997. I think I ran a search and added Kerry Brown to all of his guest spots at some point. Noticing now that Richard Patrick and Geno Lombardo don't show up in the personnel stats at all and there may be more I'm not remembering. I can handle this stuff on that banter wiki pass if you prefer though.

One last thing that was on my question list since it came up when I went through Feb. 2000 the other day. Your thoughts re moving 2000-02-19 to a Billy solo show with an Iha guest appearance? I know it was originally marketed as a SP show but 20+ years later think it fits better under the solo banner/stats, especially given the use of piano at the show and Iha's appearing on only 4 songs. Didn't want to just make the assumption that you agreed with me though. Let me know and I will handle the move or leave it alone. Thanks!!

MusikAnimal (talkcontribs)

> is there a way to remove soundcheck songs from the first/last/only performance stuff?

I think I may have already fixed that. Let me know if you spot that issue again.

> almost all of the post-Jimmy shows on the tour don't list Jimmy Flemion in the personnel sidebar

I noticed that too! I wasn't sure if "1979" with The Frogs always meant Jimmy or just Dennis, but I guess Dennis played most all of the shows as the replacement for Melvoin, while Jimmy sat in just for "1979". I'm not even sure who Richard Patrick and Geno Lombardo are! But they performed at any of the shows, it'd be great to get them listed under the personnel.

> Your thoughts re moving 2000-02-19 to a Billy solo show with an Iha guest appearance?

Seems fine. As long as you leave a redirect, people will end up in the right place if they happen to search for The Smashing Pumpkins 2000-02-19.

Cheers!

DavidB (talkcontribs)

> I noticed that too! I wasn't sure if "1979" with The Frogs always meant Jimmy or just Dennis, but I guess Dennis played most all of the shows as the replacement for Melvoin, while Jimmy sat in just for "1979".

"1979" with The Frogs has always bugged me, lol, for the reason you mentioned. It's not like Dennis was coming out for that song only and he wasn't featured on it either. I think there were very few occasions where Jimmy appeared on more than "1979" - "Farewell and Goodnight" singing Chamberlin's parts is the only example I can think of, and that wasn't more than 5 times.

> I'm not even sure who Richard Patrick and Geno Lombardo are! But they performed at any of the shows, it'd be great to get them listed under the personnel.

Richard Patrick was in the original live incarnation of Nine Inch Nails and left to start Filter. Geno Lenardo (whoops, goofed on his last name) was Filter's lead guitar player at the time. They both appear at a handful of shows in 1996 where Filter opened - I think it's really only the European leg in April and May. (Matt Walker drummed for Filter then, so he may have guested here and there too; I honestly don't remember. One more fun fact: also in Filter in 1996 was Brian Liesegang, who went on to do programming on Billy's 2005 solo tour, although I'm fairly certain he never guested on MCIS tour.) Anyway, if you find any of the info in the notes section, feel free to add - otherwise I'll do it on my pass later.

MusikAnimal (talkcontribs)

I'm going to get that with= parameter working at some point soon, too, which seems like it might be helpful here. Keeping the infobox personnel list fully comprehensive is something I think we should aim for, though. It makes for very easy querying and it's what builds the personnel lists on the tour pages.

I knew that bit about Brian Liesegang, hence the article! But Richard Patrick was new to me. Ultimately, I'd like to make articles for all of these personnel, with info only relevant to the band. Our very modestly sized list can be found now at Category:Personnel.

In other news, I've removed prerecorded from the total number of plays on song pages. And for a select few, I've add a "Longest performance" feature; say for Silverfuck#Tour stats.

DavidB (talkcontribs)

>> In other news, I've removed prerecorded from the total number of plays on song pages. And for a select few, I've add a "Longest performance" feature; say for Silverfuck#Tour stats.

Cool. Sounds fun. One of the things farther down on my to do list has been adding times for "United States" and "Glass and the Ghost Children". Neither my favorite song but both with pretty wildly differing lengths here and there.

And as far as personnel goes, I wouldn't say the list is too moderate. I'd say you have the important people covered well - Richard Patrick's info relevant to the band is fairly small.  :) I think the infobox personnel lists (at least post-MCIS tour) are fairly up-to-date at this point. There just generally aren't more than a few per tour. But talking about this did remind me of a fairly conspicuous outstanding one, so I fixed that now, haha.

DavidB (talkcontribs)

Two related questions for you now that I've gotten to the fall leg of the 2000 tour.

Do you care if those setlists remain split into two sets? That's something that's bugged me on various sites - I would consider a set break to be 20 minutes or so, similar to Billy's recent solo shows or the 2007 residencies. The break between the end of Jimmy's drum solo and him starting "Glass' Theme" on this tour is usually 30 seconds or less. (Here's an example if you're unfamiliar) This is sort of a personal preference issue like the 2000-02-19 show, but I just work here.  :)

The other question relates to including drum solo at the end of the first set in those late 2000 setlists. I don't know that it needs to be noted separately since "Blue Skies" ends with solos from Chris Holmes and Garson, followed by Jimmy. That generally continues as they use other songs to conclude the acoustic portion of the set later in the fall. I don't feel especially strongly about this but do think that if we include the drum solo in 2000, we should be including a drum solo as part of "United States" in 2010 (after Moby Dick), since Mike's solos were 4-5x the length of Jimmy's in 2000. I've been transcribing a bunch of 2010 shows recently, so it's fresh in my mind.

Let me know what you think about both issues. Also, if you want me to do a separate "questions that aren't urgent" topic to you next time something like these comes up, let me know, happy to oblige. Thanks!

MusikAnimal (talkcontribs)

> Do you care if those setlists remain split into two sets?

Not at all! Your rationale makes sense to me. I can definitely see why some would consider them separate sets, because during the drum solo the rest of the band is off-stage and taking a break, followed by the lights going out (however brief). But strictly speaking, Jimmy is part of the show and hence I wouldn't call it a proper set break.

> The other question relates to including drum solo…

Interesting! I think there's value in denoting solos, because as a listener I might be curious to dig up drum solos throughout the tour history. But, we're not using {{live song}} so there's no database record of this. What do you think about {{live song|solo=1}} or something like that (eventually it will have a with= parameter)? It seems like the parameters added to that template are ever-increasing, haha, but there's no limit! I think it would be really neat to have an automated "List of Jimmy Chamberlin drum solos" page, that works just like the other tour history pages. Anyway, if we do proceed with this then yes, doing the same for Mike's piano solos seems only fitting.

> if you want me to do a separate "questions that aren't urgent" topic to you next time something like these comes up, let me know

I do think there is value in separating topics, say this one could have gone under a new one called "Drum solos", for instance. Totally not important here on my talk page, but at a venue where multiple editors congregate, such as the Pumpkin Patch, I think it's good practice to make topics easier for people to find based on their interests. I will admit I was hoping the Pumpkin Patch would get more use. If more people communicate there, it builds a stronger sense of community. The idea being that since the Pumpkin Patch is so prominently linked (in the sidebar), others may stumble upon it and feel compelled to chime in to discussions. But in reality, for right now SPCodex is essentially just you and me, hehe, so I don't think it matters much where we talk. I certainly am never bothered by you reaching out to me directly. Here, there, wherever is totally fine :)

I'm finishing up adding some new song pages, then I'm going to work on adding the with= parameter. The solo=1 thing I can do very quickly, so let me know if you think that's a good idea and I'll get that added as well. Cheers!

DavidB (talkcontribs)

>> Not at all! Your rationale makes sense to me. I can definitely see why some would consider them separate sets, because during the drum solo the rest of the band is off-stage and taking a break, followed by the lights going out (however brief). But strictly speaking, Jimmy is part of the show and hence I wouldn't call it a proper set break.

Cool - I'm up to 2000-10-07 but will double back to remove the set designations and <li> numbering to begin set 2.

>> What do you think about {{live song|solo=1}} or something like that (eventually it will have a with= parameter)? It seems like the parameters added to that template are ever-increasing, haha, but there's no limit! I think it would be really neat to have an automated "List of Jimmy Chamberlin drum solos" page, that works just like the other tour history pages.

Sounds good to me. I'm assuming we're talking only some specific drum solos (i.e. not Solara solo in 2018-2019 or the 30+ minute versions of Gossamer in 2007). Off top of head, these are the only ones that I'd include (but open to others): Jimmy transitioning out of the final song in the acoustic portion of the set in fall 2000 (I'll leave the drum solo placeholders there for now, since there were a few shows without them); Roctopus show opener in fall 2008; Mike B. after Moby Dick during United States in 2010; and Jimmy's intro to United States in 2015. I can absolutely handle the 2008 + 2010 additions eventually - both tours have intro music that will need adding and (at present) I have 13 shows in 2010 with banter transcribed that just needs to be uploaded.

>> Anyway, if we do proceed with this then yes, doing the same for Mike's piano solos seems only fitting.

Assuming you meant Mike Byrne's drum solos and not Mike Garson's solos, although the latter would apply too - I don't think I'd include "Blank Page" intros in 1998 since they were just part of the song's performance on that tour, similar to Lisa's "Tonight, Tonight" intros in 2007-08. However, Garson did usually do a piano transition between the 2nd to last and last songs in the fall 2000 acoustic "sets." On the bright side re our workload, I can't think of any other members that would need a notation like this.

Phew, I think that's it. Thanks!

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