Topic on User talk:MusikAnimal

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DavidB (talkcontribs)

Hey dude, maybe you're aware of this already but whenever a page is loaded at the moment, the "read / edit / edit source / view history" banner at the top disappears. You can still edit individual sections on a page but that's a little weird too. Tried a few different browsers and restarted my computer to no avail, so I think it's not just me. Hopefully you already know but wanted to give you a heads up in case you don't. DB

MusikAnimal (talkcontribs)

Our hosting provider upgraded MediaWiki to version 1.36 and which came with some breaking changes, apparently. For now I've removed the customization we had on the top navigation bar. I may try to figure out how to fix it and bring back the old look, but really it's probably best to stay without customization because things will surely break again and we'll have to continually update our CSS to work with the newest MediaWiki (which gets upgraded about twice a year).

DavidB (talkcontribs)

Sure, no prob. Thanks for the quick fix. One thing I did notice about the change is that it screwed up the setlist formatting for number continuation within encores, second sets, etc. - gives you an empty #1 line before continuing with the proper number for whatever the next song is. Here's an example but there are many many more. I'm going to keep adding the numbering for now but let me know if it'll create more work for either of us later and I'll knock it off.

One small favor to ask of you while I have your ear: would you please create a tag for intro tapes? As I think I mentioned once, I would prefer "tape" to "PA" - technically, everything is coming out of the PA - but am fine with whatever you want. Thanks, as always! DB

MusikAnimal (talkcontribs)

I noticed that too. I've added a workaround in our site CSS, but unfortunately this only fixes for desktop. Due to a separate bug we don't have control over mobile CSS. Anyway, I think Miraheze (our hosting service) can still patch this on their end, so I filed a new bug at phab:T7468.

And yes, I can add a tape=1 tag to the {{live song}} template. So it should read "(over tape)"? I wonder if people will know what that means (tape to me implies audio or video cassettes). What about "(prerecorded)"?

Another small note for you, and this totally not a big deal: The manual of style (which is adapted from Wikipedia's manual of style) states that in encyclopedic writing, you should use full names on the first mention of a person, and subsequent mentions only use the surname. First names aren't ever used unless they have to be (to distinguish between Jimmy and Dennis Flemion, for instance), or if it's a quote such as live show banter. Again this is a very trivial matter and nothing important, I just noticed you've been writing "Billy", etc., so I thought I'd let you know about it. No need to go back and change all the Billy's to Corgan's, unless you really want to.

DavidB (talkcontribs)

You raise a good point. Sometimes when I'm adding wiki links in the banter, I think "Would my kids know what the hell he's talking about in 20 years without the link?" Audio/video tapes probably fall under that line of thought, haha. (prerecorded) sounds good to me! May have questions about how to address when the recorded intro isn't a song (or at least a recognizable one), but can address that when I get there. Thank you.

Point taken re names. "Corgan" seems so overly formal to me, especially on a solo show page for example, but I can live with it for consistency's sake.

MusikAnimal (talkcontribs)

Okay, the prerecorded=1 parameter has been added, see The Smashing Pumpkins 1996-10-01 for example. As a shortcut, you can use tape=1 too. Usually for an intro that isn't a song, I wouldn't use the {{live song}} template at all, just like we do for drum solos, etc. The template should only be used if it is a known song, I think.

I'm also going to change the format of the "Tour stats" section of songs to indicate how many times it was prerecorded, and not count those towards the total number of plays. That sounds fair, right? For instance Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness (song)#Tour stats indicates 210 plays, but I think that is very far from the actual number of times the song was performed live.

MusikAnimal (talkcontribs)

I'll add that I'm going through the Infinite Sadness tour now, so I can handle adding the prerecorded=1 and other cleanup on those pages, if you want to focus on others.

At some point soon I will still write a bot task to fix the numbering of the setlists (i.e. <li value=10>). I'm actually going to stop doing that manually; that very much sounds like a job for a bot. However despite what I said adding acoustic=1 I think will be hard to automate, so I'll leave that to us humans. I can automate changing notes=over PA to prerecorded=1, since it's almost always the same wording (at least for the Infinite Sadness tour).

DavidB (talkcontribs)

Sounds good re changing tour stats re pre-recorded. MCIS is the only song for which that's an issue, but (for me) would also be interesting to see on the Zeitgeist tour how many times either intro was used. (I'll handle the Zeitgeist tours since they are so intro heavy and will create pages for the two songs used there.) Fine letting a bot handle the numbering and doing acoustic ourselves.

As far as bots go: is there a way to remove soundcheck songs from the first/last/only performance stuff? I don't remember what song I came across recently where the first public performance didn't have the note because it was soundchecked a few days previous.

Thanks re Infinite Sadness tour. I still have to go back through that banter and add wiki links - would have started there instead of Adore but didn't want to have to do a second pass once we had the intro issue figured out - so just a heads up that that's coming at some point, albeit bumped down the to do list now. One thing I was going to do while I did that is something you might be able to handle - almost all of the post-Jimmy shows on the tour don't list Jimmy Flemion in the personnel sidebar. I believe he is at all but maybe 2-4 in early 1997. I think I ran a search and added Kerry Brown to all of his guest spots at some point. Noticing now that Richard Patrick and Geno Lombardo don't show up in the personnel stats at all and there may be more I'm not remembering. I can handle this stuff on that banter wiki pass if you prefer though.

One last thing that was on my question list since it came up when I went through Feb. 2000 the other day. Your thoughts re moving 2000-02-19 to a Billy solo show with an Iha guest appearance? I know it was originally marketed as a SP show but 20+ years later think it fits better under the solo banner/stats, especially given the use of piano at the show and Iha's appearing on only 4 songs. Didn't want to just make the assumption that you agreed with me though. Let me know and I will handle the move or leave it alone. Thanks!!

MusikAnimal (talkcontribs)

> is there a way to remove soundcheck songs from the first/last/only performance stuff?

I think I may have already fixed that. Let me know if you spot that issue again.

> almost all of the post-Jimmy shows on the tour don't list Jimmy Flemion in the personnel sidebar

I noticed that too! I wasn't sure if "1979" with The Frogs always meant Jimmy or just Dennis, but I guess Dennis played most all of the shows as the replacement for Melvoin, while Jimmy sat in just for "1979". I'm not even sure who Richard Patrick and Geno Lombardo are! But they performed at any of the shows, it'd be great to get them listed under the personnel.

> Your thoughts re moving 2000-02-19 to a Billy solo show with an Iha guest appearance?

Seems fine. As long as you leave a redirect, people will end up in the right place if they happen to search for The Smashing Pumpkins 2000-02-19.

Cheers!

DavidB (talkcontribs)

> I noticed that too! I wasn't sure if "1979" with The Frogs always meant Jimmy or just Dennis, but I guess Dennis played most all of the shows as the replacement for Melvoin, while Jimmy sat in just for "1979".

"1979" with The Frogs has always bugged me, lol, for the reason you mentioned. It's not like Dennis was coming out for that song only and he wasn't featured on it either. I think there were very few occasions where Jimmy appeared on more than "1979" - "Farewell and Goodnight" singing Chamberlin's parts is the only example I can think of, and that wasn't more than 5 times.

> I'm not even sure who Richard Patrick and Geno Lombardo are! But they performed at any of the shows, it'd be great to get them listed under the personnel.

Richard Patrick was in the original live incarnation of Nine Inch Nails and left to start Filter. Geno Lenardo (whoops, goofed on his last name) was Filter's lead guitar player at the time. They both appear at a handful of shows in 1996 where Filter opened - I think it's really only the European leg in April and May. (Matt Walker drummed for Filter then, so he may have guested here and there too; I honestly don't remember. One more fun fact: also in Filter in 1996 was Brian Liesegang, who went on to do programming on Billy's 2005 solo tour, although I'm fairly certain he never guested on MCIS tour.) Anyway, if you find any of the info in the notes section, feel free to add - otherwise I'll do it on my pass later.

MusikAnimal (talkcontribs)

I'm going to get that with= parameter working at some point soon, too, which seems like it might be helpful here. Keeping the infobox personnel list fully comprehensive is something I think we should aim for, though. It makes for very easy querying and it's what builds the personnel lists on the tour pages.

I knew that bit about Brian Liesegang, hence the article! But Richard Patrick was new to me. Ultimately, I'd like to make articles for all of these personnel, with info only relevant to the band. Our very modestly sized list can be found now at Category:Personnel.

In other news, I've removed prerecorded from the total number of plays on song pages. And for a select few, I've add a "Longest performance" feature; say for Silverfuck#Tour stats.

DavidB (talkcontribs)

>> In other news, I've removed prerecorded from the total number of plays on song pages. And for a select few, I've add a "Longest performance" feature; say for Silverfuck#Tour stats.

Cool. Sounds fun. One of the things farther down on my to do list has been adding times for "United States" and "Glass and the Ghost Children". Neither my favorite song but both with pretty wildly differing lengths here and there.

And as far as personnel goes, I wouldn't say the list is too moderate. I'd say you have the important people covered well - Richard Patrick's info relevant to the band is fairly small.  :) I think the infobox personnel lists (at least post-MCIS tour) are fairly up-to-date at this point. There just generally aren't more than a few per tour. But talking about this did remind me of a fairly conspicuous outstanding one, so I fixed that now, haha.

DavidB (talkcontribs)

Two related questions for you now that I've gotten to the fall leg of the 2000 tour.

Do you care if those setlists remain split into two sets? That's something that's bugged me on various sites - I would consider a set break to be 20 minutes or so, similar to Billy's recent solo shows or the 2007 residencies. The break between the end of Jimmy's drum solo and him starting "Glass' Theme" on this tour is usually 30 seconds or less. (Here's an example if you're unfamiliar) This is sort of a personal preference issue like the 2000-02-19 show, but I just work here.  :)

The other question relates to including drum solo at the end of the first set in those late 2000 setlists. I don't know that it needs to be noted separately since "Blue Skies" ends with solos from Chris Holmes and Garson, followed by Jimmy. That generally continues as they use other songs to conclude the acoustic portion of the set later in the fall. I don't feel especially strongly about this but do think that if we include the drum solo in 2000, we should be including a drum solo as part of "United States" in 2010 (after Moby Dick), since Mike's solos were 4-5x the length of Jimmy's in 2000. I've been transcribing a bunch of 2010 shows recently, so it's fresh in my mind.

Let me know what you think about both issues. Also, if you want me to do a separate "questions that aren't urgent" topic to you next time something like these comes up, let me know, happy to oblige. Thanks!

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MusikAnimal (talkcontribs)

> Do you care if those setlists remain split into two sets?

Not at all! Your rationale makes sense to me. I can definitely see why some would consider them separate sets, because during the drum solo the rest of the band is off-stage and taking a break, followed by the lights going out (however brief). But strictly speaking, Jimmy is part of the show and hence I wouldn't call it a proper set break.

> The other question relates to including drum solo…

Interesting! I think there's value in denoting solos, because as a listener I might be curious to dig up drum solos throughout the tour history. But, we're not using {{live song}} so there's no database record of this. What do you think about {{live song|solo=1}} or something like that (eventually it will have a with= parameter)? It seems like the parameters added to that template are ever-increasing, haha, but there's no limit! I think it would be really neat to have an automated "List of Jimmy Chamberlin drum solos" page, that works just like the other tour history pages. Anyway, if we do proceed with this then yes, doing the same for Mike's piano solos seems only fitting.

> if you want me to do a separate "questions that aren't urgent" topic to you next time something like these comes up, let me know

I do think there is value in separating topics, say this one could have gone under a new one called "Drum solos", for instance. Totally not important here on my talk page, but at a venue where multiple editors congregate, such as the Pumpkin Patch, I think it's good practice to make topics easier for people to find based on their interests. I will admit I was hoping the Pumpkin Patch would get more use. If more people communicate there, it builds a stronger sense of community. The idea being that since the Pumpkin Patch is so prominently linked (in the sidebar), others may stumble upon it and feel compelled to chime in to discussions. But in reality, for right now SPCodex is essentially just you and me, hehe, so I don't think it matters much where we talk. I certainly am never bothered by you reaching out to me directly. Here, there, wherever is totally fine :)

I'm finishing up adding some new song pages, then I'm going to work on adding the with= parameter. The solo=1 thing I can do very quickly, so let me know if you think that's a good idea and I'll get that added as well. Cheers!

DavidB (talkcontribs)

>> Not at all! Your rationale makes sense to me. I can definitely see why some would consider them separate sets, because during the drum solo the rest of the band is off-stage and taking a break, followed by the lights going out (however brief). But strictly speaking, Jimmy is part of the show and hence I wouldn't call it a proper set break.

Cool - I'm up to 2000-10-07 but will double back to remove the set designations and <li> numbering to begin set 2.

>> What do you think about {{live song|solo=1}} or something like that (eventually it will have a with= parameter)? It seems like the parameters added to that template are ever-increasing, haha, but there's no limit! I think it would be really neat to have an automated "List of Jimmy Chamberlin drum solos" page, that works just like the other tour history pages.

Sounds good to me. I'm assuming we're talking only some specific drum solos (i.e. not Solara solo in 2018-2019 or the 30+ minute versions of Gossamer in 2007). Off top of head, these are the only ones that I'd include (but open to others): Jimmy transitioning out of the final song in the acoustic portion of the set in fall 2000 (I'll leave the drum solo placeholders there for now, since there were a few shows without them); Roctopus show opener in fall 2008; Mike B. after Moby Dick during United States in 2010; and Jimmy's intro to United States in 2015. I can absolutely handle the 2008 + 2010 additions eventually - both tours have intro music that will need adding and (at present) I have 13 shows in 2010 with banter transcribed that just needs to be uploaded.

>> Anyway, if we do proceed with this then yes, doing the same for Mike's piano solos seems only fitting.

Assuming you meant Mike Byrne's drum solos and not Mike Garson's solos, although the latter would apply too - I don't think I'd include "Blank Page" intros in 1998 since they were just part of the song's performance on that tour, similar to Lisa's "Tonight, Tonight" intros in 2007-08. However, Garson did usually do a piano transition between the 2nd to last and last songs in the fall 2000 acoustic "sets." On the bright side re our workload, I can't think of any other members that would need a notation like this.

Phew, I think that's it. Thanks!

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